A Dialogue on Attaining the Fruit

A: Attaining the fruit and seeing the mind only requires the mind consciousness to realize it; it is not necessary for the manas to realize it at the same time. 

B: After the mind consciousness attains the fruit and becomes a sage, when one falls asleep at night, is one in the identity of a sage or of an ordinary person at that time? 

A: The eighth consciousness retains dharma seeds, and upon waking one is naturally still a person of the first fruit. 

B: If this person has not yet woken up, is he an ordinary person or one who has attained the fruit? What if this person remains in a deep coma and never wakes up? A: The eighth consciousness retains dharma seeds. B: There are many dharma seeds in the eighth consciousness, and there are also extremely numerous and extremely heavy karmic seeds of the hells. Which karmic seeds determine his identity? 

A: The karmic seeds of the mind consciousness attaining the fruit, being heavier, take precedence. 

B: Although the mind consciousness has attained the fruit, the manas has not attained the fruit. The manas's afflictions of greed, anger, delusion, and ignorance are also major karmic seeds. Are the manas's countless karmic seeds of greed, anger, delusion, and hell not stronger than the karmic seeds of the mind consciousness attaining the fruit? 

A: ········· 

B: At the time of conception, the mind consciousness has ceased, and it is the manas and the eighth consciousness that enter the womb. At this time, does one enter the womb in the identity of the mind consciousness having attained the fruit, or in the identity of the manas as an ordinary person? 

A: One enters the womb according to the karmic seeds in the eighth consciousness. 

B: The manas's countless karmic seeds of greed, anger, and delusion afflictions in the eighth consciousness are certainly stronger than the mind consciousness's karmic seeds. The dharmas that the mind consciousness has been steeped in will not ripen, because they are too light, whereas the afflictive karmic seeds corresponding to the manas are very heavy. Where will one be reborn at this time? 

A: The karmic seeds of the mind consciousness attaining the fruit are heavy. 

B: Attaining the fruit corresponds to the mind consciousness, not to the manas. The wisdom of attaining the fruit is manifested by the mind consciousness, while the manas's afflictive karmic seeds correspond to the manas, and the afflicted karmic actions are manifested by the manas. At this time the mind consciousness has ceased and can no longer manifest the wisdom of attaining the fruit, whereas the manas will manifest the afflictive karmic actions of greed, anger, delusion, and the view of self. Where will one be reborn at this time? 

A: ········ 

B: If it is always the mind consciousness that is steeped in the Buddha-dharma, how great a role can the mind consciousness still play in the neutrino-body (antarā-bhava)? In the neutrino-body, is the manas's defiled karmic force stronger, or the force of the mind consciousness's steeping? 

A: Conception does not necessarily always pass through the neutrino-body, for example, going directly to the hells or ascending to the heavens. 

B: Conception without passing through the neutrino-body occurs only when one has created major wholesome or unwholesome karma before death. Is the wholesome karma of sentient beings' mind consciousness attaining the fruit greater, or the defiled karma of greed, anger, and delusion of the manas that has not attained the fruit? Could one who has attained the fruit really ascend directly to the heavens without a neutrino-body? 

A: Steeping in the true Dharma is ultimately useful after all. 

B: Although one has steeped in the true Dharma, one's afflictions of greed, anger, and delusion are complete and not severed in the slightest; all the afflictive karmic seeds remain stored in the eighth consciousness. When the afflictive karma manifests in the neutrino-body, does one enter the womb according to the afflictive karma, or follow the steeped dharmas into the womb? 

A: One enters the womb according to the wholesome karma of the mind consciousness attaining the fruit. 

B: But after all, the manas has not attained the fruit, and one's greed, anger, and delusion before death were very heavy; the defiled karmic seeds are greater than the karmic seeds of the mind consciousness attaining the fruit. At this time, shouldn't the strong karma lead first, so that one enters the womb in the identity of the manas as a defiled ordinary person? 

A: ······· 

B: If one takes it for granted that as long as one has studied the Buddha-dharma, karmic seeds are stored and one will be reborn in wholesome destinies and depart from the three evil destinies, this is an extremely biased and stubborn notion. Although everyone has steeped in wholesome dharmas, the unwholesome karma in the eighth consciousness is still very heavy, and the wholesome dharmas are insufficient to counter the unwholesome dharmas; in the end, the powerful unwholesome dharmas still occupy the dominant position. How, then, can one avoid the retribution of the three evil destinies and be reborn in wholesome destinies?