A Dialogue on the Attainment of Fruition

A: To realize the fruit and awaken to the true mind, it is enough for the mind consciousness alone to realize it; there is no need for the manas to realize it at the same time.

B: After the mind consciousness realizes the fruit and becomes a sage, when the person falls asleep at night, is he a sage or an ordinary being at that time?

B: If this person has not yet woken up, is he an ordinary being or one who has realized the fruit? And if this person remains in a deep coma and never wakes up again?

A: The eighth consciousness retains the dharma-seeds.

B: There are many dharma-seeds in the eighth consciousness, and there are also extremely numerous and heavy karmic seeds for the hells. Which karmic seed, then, determines his identity?

A: The karmic seed of the mind consciousness realizing the fruit, being the heavier, takes precedence.

B: Although the mind consciousness has realized the fruit, the manas has not. The manas's afflictions of greed, hatred, delusion, and ignorance are also major karmic seeds. Are not the manas's countless karmic seeds of greed, hatred, delusion, and hell stronger than the karmic seed of the mind consciousness realizing the fruit?

A: ·········

B: At the time of conception, the mind consciousness has ceased, and it is the manas and the eighth consciousness that enter the womb. At this point, does one enter the womb with the identity of having realized the fruit through the mind consciousness, or with the identity of an ordinary being through the manas?

A: One enters the womb according to the karmic seeds in the eighth consciousness.

B: The manas's countless karmic seeds of greed, hatred, and delusion in the eighth consciousness are certainly stronger than the mind consciousness's karmic seeds. The dharmas that the mind consciousness has been steeped in will not ripen, because they are too light, whereas the afflictive karmic seeds corresponding to the manas are extremely heavy. Where, then, will one enter the womb at this point?

A: The karmic seed of the mind consciousness realizing the fruit is heavier.

B: The mind consciousness's realization of the fruit corresponds to the mind consciousness, not to the manas; the wisdom of realizing the fruit is manifested by the mind consciousness. The manas's afflictive karmic seeds correspond to the manas, and the afflictive karmic actions are manifested by the manas. Now the mind consciousness has ceased and can no longer manifest the wisdom of realizing the fruit, while the manas will manifest the afflictive karmic actions of greed, hatred, delusion, and self-view. Where, then, will one enter the womb at this point?

A: ········

B: If it is always the mind consciousness that is steeped in the Buddha's teachings, how great a role can the mind consciousness still play in the neutrino-body (antarā-bhava)? In the antarā-bhava, is the manas's defiled karmic force stronger, or the force of the mind consciousness's steeping?

A: Entering the womb does not necessarily always involve passing through the antarā-bhava; for example, one may go directly to hell or ascend to the heavens.

B: Conception without passing through the antarā-bhava occurs only when one has created major wholesome or unwholesome karma before death. Which is greater: the sentient being's wholesome karma of the mind consciousness realizing the fruit, or the manas's defiled karma of greed, hatred, and delusion from not realizing the fruit? Does realizing the fruit through the mind consciousness allow one to ascend directly to the heavens without an antarā-bhava?

A: Having been steeped in the true Dharma is ultimately of use.

B: Although one has been steeped in the true Dharma, if the afflictions of greed, hatred, and delusion are complete and not severed in the least, and all the afflictive karmic seeds remain stored in the eighth consciousness, then when the afflictive karma manifests in the antarā-bhava, does one enter the womb in accordance with the afflictive karma, or in accordance with the dharmas one has been steeped in?

A: One enters the womb in accordance with the wholesome karma of the mind consciousness realizing the fruit.

B: But after all, the manas has not realized the fruit; the greed, hatred, and delusion during life were extremely heavy, and the defiled karmic seeds outweigh the karmic seed of the mind consciousness realizing the fruit. Should it not then be that the stronger karma leads first, and one enters the womb with the identity of a defiled ordinary being through the manas?

A: ·······

B: If one takes for granted that as long as one has studied the Buddha's teachings, karmic seeds are stored and one will be reborn in wholesome destinies and depart from the three evil destinies, this is an extremely biased and stubborn notion. Although everyone has been steeped in wholesome dharmas, the unwholesome karma in the eighth consciousness is still very heavy; the wholesome dharmas are insufficient to counteract the unwholesome dharmas, and in the end the powerful unwholesome dharmas occupy the dominant position. How, then, can one avoid the retribution of the three evil destinies and be reborn in wholesome destinies? No matter what, the mind consciousness's steeping cannot withstand the manas's karmic force. Only by changing the manas's karmic force can one be assured of rebirth in wholesome destinies. Karmic force is the force of the manas; if the manas does not realize the fruit, the karmic force cannot change, and one will inevitably follow the manas's defilements to the three evil destinies to receive retribution. The circumstances at the end of life of countless Buddhist practitioners prove this principle.